Video On Denver Ed Martin

[Ivich]

[billeau2]

Another interesting fighter lost to obscurity but for history sections and boxing historians with film techniques. Thank you Ivich, I love this guys work.

[Willow The Wisp]

Good stuff Ivich

[QueensburyRules]

- - Weren't even the cleverest of his era, not even close, but perfect for Vitchy...

[Ivich]

- - Weren't even the cleverest of his era, not even close, but perfect for Vitchy...

I expect you have all his fights on DVD?

[travestyny]

That was exceptionally well done. Thank you so much for this!

[Dr. Z]

Martin was not the most clever negro of the 1800's. He also has a glass jaw suffering seven Ko's in four rounds or less making his chin and defense very suspect. He was not in Fitzsimmons, Corbett, Jeffries, Sharkey, McCoy, Johnson, Mcvey, Jeanette, Langford, Hart or O'brien class from 1899-1909 Maybe he was the 11th to 15th best heavyweight active in that decade. Maybe...

He was only in three matches that I am aware of in the 1800's so calling him the cleverest negro in the 1800's is a real reach. The doc itself is good, but the title and wording is not. As far as I know there is no film of Martin in the ring vs. an opponent. Only sparring vs Gus Ruhlin. Like many fighters of the times, he is missing recorded fights. But I have read of some of his unconfirmed fights. Not a bad fighter, he was a long jabber who could move. His power was solid enough. And of course few had better height and reach back then.

[billeau2]

Martin was not the most clever negro of the 1800's. He also has a glass jaw suffering seven Ko's in four rounds or less making his chin and defense very suspect. He was not in Fitzsimmons, Corbett, Jeffries, Sharkey, McCoy, Johnson, Mcvey, Jeanette, Langford, Hart or O'brien class from 1899-1909 Maybe he was the 11th to 15th best heavyweight active in that decade. Maybe...

He was only in three matches that I am aware of in the 1800's so calling him the cleverest negro in the 1800's is a real reach. The doc itself is good, but the title and wording is not. As far as I know there is no film of Martin in the ring vs. an opponent. Only sparring vs Gus Ruhlin. Like many fighters of the times, he is missing recorded fights. But I have read of some of his unconfirmed fights. Not a bad fighter, he was a long jabber who could move. His power was solid enough. And of course few had better height and reach back then.

Do you know why quotation marks were used? Ivich was quoting the presentation. When a presentation is made one generally allows for a bit of hyperbole. Would you look at a presentation on Ed Martin with the title " Denver Martin, a fairly clever pugalist for the times"? The actual presentation makes it very clear Martin had his ups and downs.

You cannot take a lead, a title, for a piece of work like this and assume it is a hypothesis, or thesis, we make allowances for certain things. Come on Z!

Now if we are having a realistic discussion about Martin it should be noted that falls under a category of fighter that had some obscurity and part of that reason could well be because he was inconsistent to a fault, had a bad chin, etc. My own opinion is that if we take a room full of potentially great athletes, and run a filter on diseases rampant at the time, fortunes/misfortunes, personal foibles... things like ********, inconsistency, etc... and opportunities afforded, we would probably have a much smaller sample of great athletes that could be ATG status.

A great example of this was in baseball in the early days. So many players had afflictions seldom did a man play at his optimum. We hear of players like Rube Waddell, who died early of things like consumption...

[Dr. Z]

Do you know why quotation marks were used? Ivich was quoting the presentation. When a presentation is made one generally allows for a bit of hyperbole. Would you look at a presentation on Ed Martin with the title " Denver Martin, a fairly clever pugalist for the times"? The actual presentation makes it very clear Martin had his ups and downs.

You cannot take a lead, a title, for a piece of work like this and assume it is a hypothesis, or thesis, we make allowances for certain things. Come on Z!

Now if we are having a realistic discussion about Martin it should be noted that falls under a category of fighter that had some obscurity and part of that reason could well be because he was inconsistent to a fault, had a bad chin, etc. My own opinion is that if we take a room full of potentially great athletes, and run a filter on diseases rampant at the time, fortunes/misfortunes, personal foibles... things like ********, inconsistency, etc... and opportunities afforded, we would probably have a much smaller sample of great athletes that could be ATG status.

A great example of this was in baseball in the early days. So many players had afflictions seldom did a man play at his optimum. We hear of players like Rube Waddell, who died early of things like consumption...

I agree with the sprit of what you are saying. I think I placed Martin his and accomplishments fairly. He had good results with more famous and better fighters in Sam Mcvey and Jack Johnson. I wish both of those fights were on film as they would shed light on their skills. Beating McVey on points and in the lead with Johnson over 10 rounds with Johnson coming on strong at the finish. So he has formable if not fragile in the chin and body. I view his offense skill as good, and his defensive skills as average. His gas tank could have been a little light though as I get the feeling that he did not have good stamina and he flat out did not take a good punch. I watched the doc. I was unaware that he had Sam McVey out of ring! That is some good stuff.

[billeau2]

I agree with the sprit of what you are saying. I think I placed Martin his and accomplishments fairly. He had good results with more famous and better fighters in Sam Mcvey and Jack Johnson. I wish both of those fights were on film as they would shed light on their skills. Beating McVey on points and in the lead with Johnson over 10 rounds with Johnson coming on strong at the finish. So he has formable if not fragile in the chin and body. I view his offense skill as good, and his defensive skills as average. His gas tank could have been a little light though as I get the feeling that he did not have good stamina and he flat out did not take a good punch. I watched the doc. I was unaware that he had Sam McVey out of ring! That is some good stuff.

I agree. Always always it makes me appreciate film at times like this lol. He did have some decent quality fights, a journeyman with a lot of experience to add to the mix!