lets clarify the power of the lineal...

[billeau2]

I know it can be confusing and Kafkod, for example, is not wrong to make a distinction between so called "official" titles,,, But we have to be careful and not assume "official" is better, more powerful, rather than simply different. I have tried to make this point about the lineal to no avail... I have faied misrably. I do not want people to change their opinions rather, I wish people just would understand how the lineal really works and not make an apple and oranges comparison.

When the Japanese first fought the Mongols, it was battel field etiquette to announce your rank family and deeds, much like other Feudal systems. The japanese had to change and they did! By the time the Mongols came back the Japanese were silent and deadly and proactive... and anyone who thinks the Japanese won because of weather, I may love you as a fellow poster but you are a fool of the most foolish way a fool can be!

Through the years many things changed in Japan, including the need to kill off the Samurai so they could be embodied as mythos and Japan could have a central state authority. So here is the thing: To this day the state enforces many provisions on what is considered traditional, and authentic... BUT the one thing neccessary for a true Japanese classical art? Is an unbroken lineage. Period. At least 200 years old, or so. Lineage is more powerful than any other provision period!

In America lineage was also valued. That is the basis for any titles to exist! And where as in Japan, it is recognized the importance of this, in this country Murica, and the rest of the boxing world, people have let fighting tradition die... They have allowed sanctioning organizations that are middle men take and coopt the value of lineage. Then? we turn around and give these sanctioning bodies God like boxing status. Ridiculous.

The lineal is named the lineal because it creates a line of succession... No hierarchy, no appeal to outside authority, just an immediate line of succession: The best and second best. Fans brainwashed and broken by the likes of Satanic Bobby Arum and psychopath Don King, are ready and willing to just give the lineal away by denying its very existence, or, claiming RING magazine made it important... How s t tu p i d can people be?

The lineal is the only title that actually matters!!! and it chiefly applies to the premier division of western boxing and little else!! The champ, the people's fighter, is the one who beats the best to become the best... Simple, elegant, no need for any middle man to recognize it... Just as even the Empror of Japan who had to send the Samurai off to die (second world war) would never destroy the true samurai test of an art: its lineage. The Japanese know better, do we?

The reason why the lineal is really the heavyweight champ is because it is assumed no one can beat the biggest lol. But even that principle can be challenged, just ask barbados Walcott or Tunney... The only champ for the people is the biggest, strongest, best... Lol.

[sarausa0106]

Maybe the problem is the delivery. If they don't get it, maybe they feel the term "lineal" is too abstract or doesn't carry enough weight compared to the official title. Instead of just saying that you shouldn't compare "apples to oranges," you could offer a more visual comparison.

[Marchegiano]

Nope.

Are better, more powerful, more known, and most importantly; real.


America started boxing because of politics. Nothing, **** all nothing, absolutely nothing to do with lineage. The entire point was breaking the hold English champions had on titles and exclusivity of their prestige. Like, as opposite of caring about lineage as possible.

We did not allow the bodies, we begged the bodies. Turns out ******** dens are not the best authorities for fairness. I'm going to be super clear, love and respect and bil is not a dumb man, but, this is a ****** position. Since the bodies are corrupt let me throw my lot into an entity that has no pretense of fairness. ... ... ... ... I mean I was clear about how I feel about that ... dumb ... that said Bil is not a dumb dude. Boxing came from promoters and fighters being such unmanageable ****s fans called for something to attempt some level of fairness be brought into the sport.

NO ONE was forced into body recognition. They enjoyed the bodies because juxtaposed to BS like Ring the bodies are pure. I'll type that **** twice. Juxtaposed to ****ing Ring Magazine the sanctioning bodies are a beacon of sport over promotion. That fact and that fact alone is why the bodies have so much more power than the idea of lineal. Tired of Jack Johnson's ****. Tired of Corbett's ****. Tired of champions being able to dictate boxing on their whims; bodies were formed.

Ring did not just make it important. Ring made it up. There's a difference. This is the invention of Nat and like everything else Nat did it is historically inaccurate and those inaccuracies are simply made up bull****. It's named lineal because Ring named it that. Semantics, I can think of a few single words that dictate lines of succession. Nat went with lineal/lineage instead of heir/hierarchy or successor/succession or any other synonym. It differs from monarchy and from the traditions of bare knuckle because Nat didn't know for **** all about BK. Take Egan and Miles, throw in a splash of Fox, you have everything Nat ever wrote with less made up bull**** and just as many mistakes.


Lineal is the only title tired old diehard boxing fans preach is important despite its inability to convince the next generation. Me, kaf, there's a reason I noted the age and it isn;t to be derogatory. these are demographics. Bil and I are American so we'll agree on some **** reflective of that Kaf doesn't. Kafkod and I are abouts peers in age I reckon, 30s?, we are together unconvinced by lineage.









The thing that hurts lineal most is the days of a mysterious glory days era are over. We have all the sources. we have the sources that prove the sources you grew up with are bull. If the lineage, if what is on Cyber Boxing, Wiki, Lineal Champions.com, etc. That list that is copied and pasted everywhere based on Nat's nonsense. If it actually reflected who was really called champion during that time it would have a lot more strength. The very second name in chronological order the ****er got wrong and proceeds to be very wrong through out. Man who beat the man, direct AF and simple AF is basically the only time Nate is right.


We might give more ****s if the **** youse say was true when we looked it up, but it isn't. It's not even very close.

[Willow The Wisp]

Nope.

Are better, more powerful, more known, and most importantly; real.


America started boxing because of politics. Nothing, **** all nothing, absolutely nothing to do with lineage. The entire point was breaking the hold English champions had on titles and exclusivity of their prestige. Like, as opposite of caring about lineage as possible.

We did not allow the bodies, we begged the bodies. Turns out ******** dens are not the best authorities for fairness. I'm going to be super clear, love and respect and bil is not a dumb man, but, this is a ****** position. Since the bodies are corrupt let me throw my lot into an entity that has no pretense of fairness. ... ... ... ... I mean I was clear about how I feel about that ... dumb ... that said Bil is not a dumb dude. Boxing came from promoters and fighters being such unmanageable ****s fans called for something to attempt some level of fairness be brought into the sport.

NO ONE was forced into body recognition. They enjoyed the bodies because juxtaposed to BS like Ring the bodies are pure. I'll type that **** twice. Juxtaposed to ****ing Ring Magazine the sanctioning bodies are a beacon of sport over promotion. That fact and that fact alone is why the bodies have so much more power than the idea of lineal. Tired of Jack Johnson's ****. Tired of Corbett's ****. Tired of champions being able to dictate boxing on their whims; bodies were formed.

Ring did not just make it important. Ring made it up. There's a difference. This is the invention of Nat and like everything else Nat did it is historically inaccurate and those inaccuracies are simply made up bull****. It's named lineal because Ring named it that. Semantics, I can think of a few single words that dictate lines of succession. Nat went with lineal/lineage instead of heir/hierarchy or successor/succession or any other synonym. It differs from monarchy and from the traditions of bare knuckle because Nat didn't know for **** all about BK. Take Egan and Miles, throw in a splash of Fox, you have everything Nat ever wrote with less made up bull**** and just as many mistakes.


Lineal is the only title tired old diehard boxing fans preach is important despite its inability to convince the next generation. Me, kaf, there's a reason I noted the age and it isn;t to be derogatory. these are demographics. Bil and I are American so we'll agree on some **** reflective of that Kaf doesn't. Kafkod and I are abouts peers in age I reckon, 30s?, we are together unconvinced by lineage.









The thing that hurts lineal most is the days of a mysterious glory days era are over. We have all the sources. we have the sources that prove the sources you grew up with are bull. If the lineage, if what is on Cyber Boxing, Wiki, Lineal Champions.com, etc. That list that is copied and pasted everywhere based on Nat's nonsense. If it actually reflected who was really called champion during that time it would have a lot more strength. The very second name in chronological order the ****er got wrong and proceeds to be very wrong through out. Man who beat the man, direct AF and simple AF is basically the only time Nate is right.


We might give more ****s if the **** youse say was true when we looked it up, but it isn't. It's not even very close.

That's some pretty bad psycobabel my sometimes levitious friend.
I definately don't need to hear your thoughts on the moon landing or the Houlocaust.

I apologize for flippancy, but the championship succession still stands, and water is still wet.
History, for its part, holds only contempt for the alphabet title belt sellers, and other corruptors of world history.

There are not two ways to look at this issue. Never was, never will be. Generations are each responsible for their own acquisition of knowledge.

[Marchegiano]

That's some pretty bad psycobabel my sometimes levitious friend.
I definately don't need to hear your thoughts on the moon landing or the Houlocaust.

I apologize for flippancy, but the championship succession still stands, and water is still wet.
History, for its part, holds only contempt for the alphabet title belt sellers, and other corruptors of world history.

There are not two ways to look at this issue. Never was, never will be. Generations are each responsible for their own acquisition of knowledge.

I get that a lot. it translates to you need to feel seen but refuse to face me.

One is not unaware of the grain in which they buck against my sometimes condescending friend.

[Willow The Wisp]

I get that a lot. it translates to you need to feel seen but refuse to face me.

One is not unaware of the grain in which they buck against my sometimes condescending friend.

Lol. Guilty.

[Willow The Wisp]

Boxing has more belts than a straight jacket, and is a sport crazy enough to need one. They seem to be growing at a rate of about one every dozen years or so.
In the 130 years of the Modern Boxing Era, en****** who "Sanction" world titles have come and gone, but stubbornly, those who are designed strictly for profit and make those profits, tend to stick around a while.

The World Boxing Association (WBA) begin in August 1962 in Panama, largely as a continuem of the old US based National Boxing Association (NBA). But it has not been clear sailing for them. As of August 2024, the respected boxing website BoxRec no longer recognizes WBA world title fights or world champions, due to what it sees as a pattern of abuses.

The World Boxing Council (WBC) was formed in Mexico City in February 1963 and really caught on by the mid 1960's as another purveyor of champions, and today boasts 161 member nations.

The International Boxing Federation (IBF) was founded in 1983, when Robert W. "Bobby" Lee Sr, a former New Jersey state boxing commissioner and regional WBA affiliate United States Boxing Association (USBA) president, lost the election in his bid to become WBA president, to Colombian Gilberto Mendoza.
Disgruntled, Lee and several other delegates withdrew from the WBA and founded USBA-International, and the new organization was renamed the International Boxing Federation on November 6, 1983, based in New Jersey, the U.S. The IBF gained credibility when they awarded their title recognition to Larry Holmes soon after its inception, when the long established lineal world champion dropped his WBC belt, citing their nonsensical demand to defend against undeserving contenders controlled by promoter Don King.

More recently, the World Boxing Organization (WBO) was formed after a group of Puerto Rican and Dominican businessmen broke out of the WBA's 1988 annual convention in Venezuela over disputes regarding what rules should be applied. The WBO achieved credibility when it was recognized by the International Boxing Hall of Fame.

Each of these groups has promoted a process of inventing more weight classes over time, and added additional belts to offer, such as super, interim, regular and Man of Triumph belts, in order to boost sales of their recognition products, while gradually replacing, in the minds of casual fans and neophyte reporters assigned to cover the sport, the non-profit title regognizers such as the New York State Athletic Commission (NYSAC), the British Boxing Board of Boxing Control (BBBC); the European Boxing Union (EBU) and The Ring Magazine, boxing's trade journal since 1922.

Today, in all weight classes except for heavyweight, the actual world title lineage is obscured by a history of strippings, disputes, weight class movements and retirements.

In 2025, it is common the hear the phrase "The four belt era", in reference to the aforementioned companies. Fighters who's management steers them towards contenders who possess one or more belts, and win them, are called "unified belt holders", and extra accolades are afforded in the press for milestones that are achieved specifically "In the four belt era".

But this is a profitable business, and because these groups have little to do with the actual governance and administration of international boxing; the selling of title recognition to promotion companies is almost pure profit. And thus, it is not surprising that there are other groups incorporated who are inching towards recognition by the press. The International Boxing Union, The World Boxing Society, The American Boxing Organization and The Transnational Boxing Board are among these.

Earlier this month, UFC and WWE parent company TKO announced a new boxing league in collaboration with Turki Alalshikh and Saudi Arabia's entertainment company Sela. Though not yet made clear, it is reasonable that their new "league" may soon enough move to usurp the tenuous authority of the existing organizations.

Indeed, we seem to be headed toward either the five, six, seven or eight belt era; or perhaps; to the utopian One Belt era.
Time will tell.

[billeau2]

Nope.

Are better, more powerful, more known, and most importantly; real.


America started boxing because of politics. Nothing, **** all nothing, absolutely nothing to do with lineage. The entire point was breaking the hold English champions had on titles and exclusivity of their prestige. Like, as opposite of caring about lineage as possible.

We did not allow the bodies, we begged the bodies. Turns out ******** dens are not the best authorities for fairness. I'm going to be super clear, love and respect and bil is not a dumb man, but, this is a ****** position. Since the bodies are corrupt let me throw my lot into an entity that has no pretense of fairness. ... ... ... ... I mean I was clear about how I feel about that ... dumb ... that said Bil is not a dumb dude. Boxing came from promoters and fighters being such unmanageable ****s fans called for something to attempt some level of fairness be brought into the sport.

NO ONE was forced into body recognition. They enjoyed the bodies because juxtaposed to BS like Ring the bodies are pure. I'll type that **** twice. Juxtaposed to ****ing Ring Magazine the sanctioning bodies are a beacon of sport over promotion. That fact and that fact alone is why the bodies have so much more power than the idea of lineal. Tired of Jack Johnson's ****. Tired of Corbett's ****. Tired of champions being able to dictate boxing on their whims; bodies were formed.

Ring did not just make it important. Ring made it up. There's a difference. This is the invention of Nat and like everything else Nat did it is historically inaccurate and those inaccuracies are simply made up bull****. It's named lineal because Ring named it that. Semantics, I can think of a few single words that dictate lines of succession. Nat went with lineal/lineage instead of heir/hierarchy or successor/succession or any other synonym. It differs from monarchy and from the traditions of bare knuckle because Nat didn't know for **** all about BK. Take Egan and Miles, throw in a splash of Fox, you have everything Nat ever wrote with less made up bull**** and just as many mistakes.


Lineal is the only title tired old diehard boxing fans preach is important despite its inability to convince the next generation. Me, kaf, there's a reason I noted the age and it isn;t to be derogatory. these are demographics. Bil and I are American so we'll agree on some **** reflective of that Kaf doesn't. Kafkod and I are abouts peers in age I reckon, 30s?, we are together unconvinced by lineage.









The thing that hurts lineal most is the days of a mysterious glory days era are over. We have all the sources. we have the sources that prove the sources you grew up with are bull. If the lineage, if what is on Cyber Boxing, Wiki, Lineal Champions.com, etc. That list that is copied and pasted everywhere based on Nat's nonsense. If it actually reflected who was really called champion during that time it would have a lot more strength. The very second name in chronological order the ****er got wrong and proceeds to be very wrong through out. Man who beat the man, direct AF and simple AF is basically the only time Nate is right.


We might give more ****s if the **** youse say was true when we looked it up, but it isn't. It's not even very close.

here is what I do not get: Why would anyone, including Nat, get to dictate a consensus form of legitimacy? I mean because Ring corrupted something succession itself is called into question?

I get you disagree about the archetype of succession... I get this because you differentiate and accuse the lineal of being a bstrdized form of Heredity succession (vis a vis your comments on the English champs) . This is not a right, or wrong, IMO so much as an observation one can agree, or disagree with... I do think it is clever...I guess to my own biased way of thinking, what else can we have but systems that are based on heredity, or somehow mimick the mechanism through succession? I also take issue with the possible rejoinder here: "The lineal is a de mocratic institution grounded, not in heredity, but the accomplishments of the man."

See Marg? I do not believe either of the above. I think fans worked out a way that they could cast a vote and hold some power regarding whom should be the best! It was that innocent! I also believe the lineal, as much as it could apply does nto apply to anyone really but the "best" and always "best" the heavyweight champion of the world! For whatever that is worht lol.

[Marchegiano]

here is what I do not get: Why would anyone, including Nat, get to dictate a consensus form of legitimacy? I mean because Ring corrupted something succession itself is called into question?

I get you disagree about the archetype of succession... I get this because you differentiate and accuse the lineal of being a bstrdized form of Heredity succession (vis a vis your comments on the English champs) . This is not a right, or wrong, IMO so much as an observation one can agree, or disagree with... I do think it is clever...I guess to my own biased way of thinking, what else can we have but systems that are based on heredity, or somehow mimick the mechanism through succession? I also take issue with the possible rejoinder here: "The lineal is a de mocratic institution grounded, not in heredity, but the accomplishments of the man."

See Marg? I do not believe either of the above. I think fans worked out a way that they could cast a vote and hold some power regarding whom should be the best! It was that innocent! I also believe the lineal, as much as it could apply does nto apply to anyone really but the "best" and always "best" the heavyweight champion of the world! For whatever that is worht lol.

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice. If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice. Sorry, yes that is a bit of Rush.

I don't have a problem with folks talking about lineage or liking it. I just kinda got dragged in by voicing it's just a popularity contest. It does seem to me, bright or slow, dudes a bit old than me seem to want lineal to be more than it is but nothing more than the popularity contest holds any water. The popularity

... TF are you guys talking about? They see the belts, they look up the belts, when you look up boxing and champions you don't hit a **** ton of lineage links. It's all body history ****. You need to add lineal to your search bro to get lineal bull. On TV, they see, hear, lineal often? Nope but they will hear and see WBC/a/o ya know.

We come into this sport knowing lineal is not popular nor mainstream. Its something boxing fans teach new boxing fans.

Prestige of lineal quickly loses water when you watch pros scramble time and time again for any body belt while not once making any attempt at lineal. Pros only mention lineal when they don't even have a ring belt to claim. And going back in time it turns out the prestige of Cribbs belt was dead by the 1830s and lost by gamblin dens in the 50s

The great John L whose mystique backs the prestige to this day, name dropped heaps, is nothing more than a promotional campaign who didn't even have to win his fights.

Importance? No one knows about this ****. It's so super important it isn't even flushed out story telling let alone quality history. It can't be important by design. It's a debate feature. May as well tell me p4p matters. Like ****, it's value is having old men debate who should be a singular champion per era.

If I am being super real about it, lineal's value is in veteran fans making new fans feel small.



Nat controlled consensus the same way everyone who presents narrative to a vacuum controls said narrative. I am currently the ancients dude ... uh ... still ... but the historians are not lazy ****s doe ... You don't think I can organize and present these dudes in such as way I have a logical fallacy I can spread through misinformation and lies? Bro, check the lists. Check the lists again for typos. That's GD right dude, there is only one. Everyone else just copy/paste. If I attached narrative to it, it too would be copy/paste every where you search. Once the sources are in line and someone can look up my words from a source that isn't me that game is done and I've won with nothing to contest me.



To that end, I am the only person I know of actually qualified to speak to the line of champions. Including the historians.

[Marchegiano]

Just to flex on this. I am currently debating a man going by Melankomas on another forum. He doesn't know this, but you do. What are the chances he even hears of ol Mel without me prior? So, good thing I did proper research. Should I be found out wrong in the future, that's it, I was simply wrong. Nat told lies. He knew better and penned stories anyway. I could, I did not. I know, for sure, what complete control over a narrative in history looks like and you know that I do.

So much is my control over this narrative even those here who make a hobby out of being my contrarian do not step into that world and outright admit their ignorance. Something unheard of in boxing communities. I have a neutral ground no one is willing to challenge me on. Nat did once too. Nat used that position to spread lies his fans then cling to even when presented with the reality of history.


Finally, semantics, ask me about the historical belt. Ask me about traditions or a traditional title. I'll run with it. Asking me about lineal IS asking about Nat's narrative on champions. It is his term. It is his concept. It come with his flaws. MY historical, traditional, title can't even share the same verbiage as his because that causes people to think I am talking about the same thing he was. I am not. I am talking about what he claimed he was talking about. There is a difference.