Yet another way to Understand the Lineal

[Willie Pep 229]

A lot to unpack here in a good way. Let me paint some broad strokes first: To say that the fans do not know who the best is necessarily for there to be a Lineal (lets just call it that for the sake of clarity shall we?) Is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. To say there are chauvanistic forces at work, like the color line, nationality, that also make thelineal imperfect is also absolutely correct. No, the lineal is far from perfect. I can also see how perhaps in arguing for it I might be misunderstood as claiming the lineal is perfect... But you will give me some credit on this account? I have been very deliberate about not saying the lineal is BETTER, than other titles, merely saying it is different with a different base of power. So your points are well taken and hopefully add more understanding to the Lineal, w arts and all.

An analogy might be Affirmative Action. In San Francisco when I was teaching High School there was Lowell High School, the academically elite public school. If Lowell did not use some "scale" some affirmative action mechanism virtually all the students would be Asian. Some people were ok with this, others see it as a necessary reason for affirmative action. Here is the point: In this case? Affirmative action may not be perfect (like the lineal) But until we get something more fair, it acts as a means to be fair and provide a somewhat multicultural environment for kids.

The bolded: Agreed. Totally.

I think the alignment with history is important because it gives us a sense of why it exists in the first place. See that is the difference between you and Kafkod IMO. You acknowledge points, contribute points, which show that the idea can be discussed logically and ultimately someone can take their own informed POV on the subject. I do not want to put you at odds with Kafkod, but I wanted to make sure I was not assuming anything about your pov.

And we also agree on a lot of points, like those raised above. Fans do not have a mechanism that foreshadows "the real best fighters." Fans can only know what they see and are told by other fans and the world for most of human history has been a much bigger place... I mean, Australia had British convicts fighting everyday, great fighters like Darcy came out of there, but how could their fan base contribute to the lineal? And even in the ranks of thoise known, we have the color line to consider and we have the subtleties that might well make a recognizable fighter inferior to a fighter who has not had the chance because of fan backing (circular logic there lol).

A friend of mine had a nephew at Wharton. I asked him about the demographics and he said, it's mostly J ews, Asians, and some others.

[billeau2]

A friend of mine had a nephew at Wharton. I asked him about the demographics and he said, it's mostly J ews, Asians, and some others.

. My dad was J e w i s h and I was a bit of a delinquent in junior high school... Just getting left back, always in trouble... So we would visit my grandmother in Brooklyn, and she would look at me and pinch my cheek saying: "hes going to be a doctor? or a lawyer?" My dad would then shoot me a look... .

[JAB5239]

. My dad was J e w i s h and I was a bit of a delinquent in junior high school... Just getting left back, always in trouble... So we would visit my grandmother in Brooklyn, and she would look at me and pinch my cheek saying: "hes going to be a doctor? or a lawyer?" My dad would then shoot me a look... .

I laughed out loud at this because my story was similar only with Italian grandparents and aunts and uncles.

Cheek pinchinpinchingts a lost art. Does anybody besides the old timers pinch cheeks anymore? I couldn't go anywhere as a kid without it happening at least once a day if not more!

[billeau2]

I laughed out loud at this because my story was similar only with Italian grandparents and aunts and uncles.

Cheek pinchinpinchingts a lost art. Does anybody besides the old timers pinch cheeks anymore? I couldn't go anywhere as a kid without it happening at least once a day if not more!

[Marchegiano]

A lot to unpack here in a good way. Let me paint some broad strokes first: To say that the fans do not know who the best is necessarily for there to be a Lineal (lets just call it that for the sake of clarity shall we?) Is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. To say there are chauvanistic forces at work, like the color line, nationality, that also make thelineal imperfect is also absolutely correct. No, the lineal is far from perfect. I can also see how perhaps in arguing for it I might be misunderstood as claiming the lineal is perfect... But you will give me some credit on this account? I have been very deliberate about not saying the lineal is BETTER, than other titles, merely saying it is different with a different base of power. So your points are well taken and hopefully add more understanding to the Lineal, w arts and all.

An analogy might be Affirmative Action. In San Francisco when I was teaching High School there was Lowell High School, the academically elite public school. If Lowell did not use some "scale" some affirmative action mechanism virtually all the students would be Asian. Some people were ok with this, others see it as a necessary reason for affirmative action. Here is the point: In this case? Affirmative action may not be perfect (like the lineal) But until we get something more fair, it acts as a means to be fair and provide a somewhat multicultural environment for kids.

The bolded: Agreed. Totally.

I think the alignment with history is important because it gives us a sense of why it exists in the first place. See that is the difference between you and Kafkod IMO. You acknowledge points, contribute points, which show that the idea can be discussed logically and ultimately someone can take their own informed POV on the subject. I do not want to put you at odds with Kafkod, but I wanted to make sure I was not assuming anything about your pov.

And we also agree on a lot of points, like those raised above. Fans do not have a mechanism that foreshadows "the real best fighters." Fans can only know what they see and are told by other fans and the world for most of human history has been a much bigger place... I mean, Australia had British convicts fighting everyday, great fighters like Darcy came out of there, but how could their fan base contribute to the lineal? And even in the ranks of thoise known, we have the color line to consider and we have the subtleties that might well make a recognizable fighter inferior to a fighter who has not had the chance because of fan backing (circular logic there lol).

Well yeah, that's why I framed it that way, it is the cross, the one that hits hard.


I might jump around a bit, The daughter's a bit in and out on me today. Just running in needing attention then quick as she came she's gone.


I'd say with this descriptor it is fair for me to claim a fan base needs to grow large enough for former fan bases to acknowledge them before said fans have a voice in lineal.

Which might be a bit shorter than i thought but also covers my ass nicely. I think.

[billeau2]

Well yeah, that's why I framed it that way, it is the cross, the one that hits hard.


I might jump around a bit, The daughter's a bit in and out on me today. Just running in needing attention then quick as she came she's gone.


I'd say with this descriptor it is fair for me to claim a fan base needs to grow large enough for former fan bases to acknowledge them before said fans have a voice in lineal.

Which might be a bit shorter than i thought but also covers my ass nicely. I think.

Sounds like you have some custody, I remember when this was problematic... Good to hear! They grow up so damn fast... I swear the days are flying by! And kids show that to you lol.

Yeah the lineal kind of relies upon what Durkheim called "Efforvescence" related to human ritual actions. As a group the sum total of their energy is much greater than the sum of each individual fan... You need a connection, a ritual, a tradition to tie that together. I am going to hit you with one of my insane beliefs: one that won me a best paper award during an academic conference on religion...

Street Gangs, sports worship, any gang with colors... are all an expression of our religious way to interact. No diffrent than the Australian Aborigines with their animal clans, how these associations determine their whole kinship system. Boxing fans are an example. What should it matter when two guys have a fight in a ring? Until it becomes a sporting event... Then there is this efforvescence, this energy, this whole process that makes us feel like part of a greater whole.

So to me, this is the ontological reason for lineal traditions. They are alas no different than for any other sport. When a football game is played, the fans have their role. But here is the thing: For this process to happen we need clarity: Australian Aborigines are forbidden to do certain things like marry certain other animal clan members, eat their own Totem... and the clarity representing the fans efforvescence is an aspect of "the supreme, the best is the man who aspires to beat the best." That whole aspect sets up a faux kinship, faux heredity lineage of undisputed, supreme, best.. I am probably alone in ascribing this to specifically the heavyweight champion. He alone is the biggest, baddest.... I believe the lineal ultimately applies to the heavyweight champ alone.

Ohh also: I think this ties in to your thesis that what we call "boxing" needs the component of individual glory that the Greek ideals brought to the practice. The whole Olympic tradition? Or maybe predates that tradition...You know better than I.