Charles "Sonny" Liston vs. Rocky Marciano

[Brassangel]

I don't know if I'd place Johnson in the top 10 anymore either. Then again, those lists are subject to change.

Originally Posted by SABBATH
Frank Lotierzo ( from the Joe Louis era onwards)

Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
George Foreman
Sonny Liston
Joe Frazier
Rocky Marciano
Larry Holmes
Evander Holyfield
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson

This is an interesting way to view the list: "...from Joe Louis era onwards...". Joe Louis really did change the face of the sport; and following him, there came a slew of very style-intensive fighters. The boxers started getting heavier (on average), and the field became deeper and deeper. Maybe there should be a barrier in there somewhere. Although I think Larry Holmes would be good in any era, I find it strange that on the Louis-forward list he's lower than he was anywhere else.

[QueensburyRules]

Liston had a freakishly long 84' inch reach and kept guys at bay with it. It was a jackhammer and he would often double it and follow through with a long right hand. It was not a blinder, it was possibly his best weapon, he threw it with great regularity and he is generally recognized today as having the hardest jab of any of the heavyweight champions. Liston was not known particularly as an infighter although when he had a guy hurt he got closer and shortened his hooks up.

Liston's style is often gauged by the first Ali fight where he chased Ali around the ring. That wasn't exactly Liston's style. Liston was usually much more patient than that fight would indicate.

Liston was more Joe Louis (boxer/puncher) than he was Frazier or Tyson (aggressive swarmer). Even the Patterson fights show this despite them being first round KO's.

Liston didn't tear after his opponents looking for the early stoppage. He fought as a boxer but his power ultimately would hurt his opponent which is when he would go for the kill. Again not unlike Joe Louis who was Liston's idol.

A word about Liston-Marciano. Marciano was quoted when Liston was champion as saying he would not have wanted to fight Liston.

Milt Bailey who was a longtime cornerman for both Liston and Frazier said Liston would have beaten Frazier had they fought in their primes.

- -The reason Miltie was a cornerman is because he could seldom pic a winner.

[johnbook]

Joe Louis on the Clay-Liston fight can be heard saying Liston was the best HW champion ever. He fought the Rock.

Rocky was KDed by lesser punchers than Liston.
KO/TKO win by Liston. Mid to late rd.

[QueensburyRules]

Joe Louis on the Clay-Liston fight can be heard saying Liston was the best HW champion ever. He fought the Rock.

Rocky was KDed by lesser punchers than Liston.
KO/TKO win by Liston. Mid to late rd.

- -What'd Joe say after Sonny quit on his stool?

[Rusty Tromboni]

Joe Louis on the Clay-Liston fight can be heard saying Liston was the best HW champion ever. He fought the Rock.

Rocky was KDed by lesser punchers than Liston.
KO/TKO win by Liston. Mid to late rd.

Knocked down because he was off balance. I don't recall him ever being hurt.

I don't even recall him stepping backwards.


Liston beats Marciano because he's about 20 pounds heavier. Same weight he does no better than Charles.

[billeau2]

Tough fight to call. On paper? Liston easy money... Now most times people tend to use the intangibles as a stockade for their ignorance. I think we all do and its not a critiscism by any means. So... lets say we put Wilder against Liston. Two big punchers, great reach, then we take all the stuff we don't know...they become our prejudice, our point of view. Things like: Did Wilder ever take a punch like that sonny delivers? or, Did Liston ever fight a guy with reach like his? We don't know so we project lol.

BUt this fight to me is a rare bird where the intangibles really are tremendous and mean something more than the biases du Jour.

Intangible #1 How will Marciano handle getting in on liston and vice versa? We have a guy who is an expert in keeping range, and a guy who is expert in taking range away. One could argue that Marciano was the best swarming heavyweight, outworking guys like even Frazier. One could also argue that Liston was one of the best range finders and perhaps the best finisher ever in the division. Notice, not saying either statement is correct, but i do think one could argue either statement.

So we have a veritable best against best skill set. In other words, if anyone is going to get in on Liston it will be Marciano and if anyone is going to measure the rock, keep him at the right distance for a finish its going to be Liston.

Intangible #2 How do you compare two fighters who are going to use skills that put them at the top of that skill set...what can we compare these skills too?

Closest I can see is Foreman versus Frazier. Foreman was trained by Liston and retained a good set of skills that show this connection. Frazier was a swarmer and slugger. Does this fight tell us something about the prognosis for Liston versus Marciano?

Im thinking on that one for now.

[cfang]

Mmm an interesting one this. First off you think, oh yes liston is much bigger, the reach difference is just ridiculous, liston with more power and rocky gets cut too. He mostly fought smaller heavys so surely hes got no chance.

Well i see liston the most likely winner but don't count the rock out of making this hard and actually winning too. look at ruiz vs aj. Aj all the advantages but still got beat. Most likely result is liston winning on cuts, managing to bust rocky up with that jab. There are possibilities though that rocky gets inside and does a number on sonny and theres no doubt rocky has more determination and will to win. Id say rocky wins 4/10.

Tough fight to call. On paper? Liston easy money... Now most times people tend to use the intangibles as a stockade for their ignorance. I think we all do and its not a critiscism by any means. So... lets say we put Wilder against Liston. Two big punchers, great reach, then we take all the stuff we don't know...they become our prejudice, our point of view. Things like: Did Wilder ever take a punch like that sonny delivers? or, Did Liston ever fight a guy with reach like his? We don't know so we project lol.

BUt this fight to me is a rare bird where the intangibles really are tremendous and mean something more than the biases du Jour.

Intangible #1 How will Marciano handle getting in on liston and vice versa? We have a guy who is an expert in keeping range, and a guy who is expert in taking range away. One could argue that Marciano was the best swarming heavyweight, outworking guys like even Frazier. One could also argue that Liston was one of the best range finders and perhaps the best finisher ever in the division. Notice, not saying either statement is correct, but i do think one could argue either statement.

So we have a veritable best against best skill set. In other words, if anyone is going to get in on Liston it will be Marciano and if anyone is going to measure the rock, keep him at the right distance for a finish its going to be Liston.

Intangible #2 How do you compare two fighters who are going to use skills that put them at the top of that skill set...what can we compare these skills too?

Closest I can see is Foreman versus Frazier. Foreman was trained by Liston and retained a good set of skills that show this connection. Frazier was a swarmer and slugger. Does this fight tell us something about the prognosis for Liston versus Marciano?

Im thinking on that one for now.

[QueensburyRules]

Mmm an interesting one this. First off you think, oh yes liston is much bigger, the reach difference is just ridiculous, liston with more power and rocky gets cut too. He mostly fought smaller heavys so surely hes got no chance.

- -They both fought smallish hvys, that was their shared era.

Liston got his jaw busted by one to drop a decision. I grant Sonny fought a bigger, stronger more dangerous fighter in Cleve Williams, 2x via KO, but other than Cleve weren't around for Rocky to fight, es nada.

I figure Sonny best changes are early in their careers where Sonny was oozing natural attributes and Rocky was trying to tame 2 left feet and propensity to brawl face first.

Once Rock learned the tricks of the trade, he'd have been like Eddie Machen with a jackhammer in each hand. Sonny a bit of a bully prob folds in a fight like that.

There is a reason Ali developed a healthy respect for Rock, and it was based on one on one sessions in the ring, enough to name one of the half dozen named boulders at Deer Lake after Rocky.

[john l]

Rocky was my 1st favorite fighter when I was about 7-8. I have a framed pic on my wall of him(v Walcott) still that was given to me. That being said Liston's jab alone would make a mess out of the Rock face. TKO 7 Liston.

[The Old LefHook]

Almost all the posters are dead or they would still be with us. They didn't know much either.