Johnson - Flynn most complete film of the fight

[Willie Pep 229]

I could be wrong, but, I don't think clinching was illegal in JJ's era. I'm pretty sure that's a sanctioning body addition. I know the era just prior it wasn't, plenty of guys were actually known for their wrestling. I'm a bit out of practice what with my ban and all. I've been digging into medieval stuff while I was away so I'm struggling to give a name but I'm pretty sure Jeffries had a sparring partner known for his wrestling also named Jim, I just can't recall the last name. Anyway, point is wrestling's a part of boxing in the early gloved era on back until the ancient era.

-Marchegiano

Marquess of Queensberry

Rule #2: No wrestling or hugging allowed.

I realize that in practice clinching happens. I also realize that when two men clash into eachother it is an inevitably.

But what JJ was doing was not clinching, he was holding Flynn in place and in turn dictating the pace of the fight. Which can fairly be called 'hugging.'

Much like Ali-Frazier II where Ali kept grabbing the back of Frazier's head and pulling his face into his chest, throwing Frazier's timing completely off and neutralizing his body attack.


WELCOME BACK. GREAT TO HAVE YOU BACK !

[Mysterian]

Marquess of Queensberry

Rule #2: No wrestling or hugging allowed.

I realize that in practice clinching happens. I also realize that when two men clash into eachother it is an inevitably.

But what JJ was doing was not clinching, he was holding Flynn in place and in turn dictating the pace of the fight. Which can fairly be called 'hugging.'

Much like Ali-Frazier II where Ali kept grabbing the back of Frazier's head and pulling his face into his chest, throwing Frazier's timing completely off and neutralizing his body attack.


WELCOME BACK. GREAT TO HAVE YOU BACK !

That's fair but when exactly did QB rules start actually being enforced?

Cleats, hard gloves, ring size, there was a bunch of stuff QB restricted that guys from Sullivan to JJ didn't really follow.

I'm not trying to justify JJ's tactics I'm just guessing there wasn't much criticism of hugging because it was pretty common.

I appreciate the welcome.

[Dr. Z]

Marquess of Queensberry

Rule #2: No wrestling or hugging allowed.

I realize that in practice clinching happens. I also realize that when two men clash into eachother it is an inevitably.

But what JJ was doing was not clinching, he was holding Flynn in place and in turn dictating the pace of the fight. Which can fairly be called 'hugging.'

Much like Ali-Frazier II where Ali kept grabbing the back of Frazier's head and pulling his face into his chest, throwing Frazier's timing completely off and neutralizing his body attack.


WELCOME BACK. GREAT TO HAVE YOU BACK !

It is more that just hugging, Johnson hits and holds. That's illegal today. And would be in Ali's day too.

[Willie Pep 229]

It is more that just hugging, Johnson hits and holds. That's illegal today. And would be in Ali's day too.

Throwing cheap shots during the clinch is kinda common, still wrong but kind of common. Hitting off the break as Wills did with Firpo is dirty fighting.

If I had been the referee I would have warned JJ about holding a few times and if he was still doing it by the 5th round (as he was) I would DQ him.

Taking away a man's title on a DQ is always a difficult thing to do. In fact I am not sure if it has ever happened in the HW ranks.

What bothered me about watching Johnson (and Ali) was that he were controlling the pacing of the fight, breaking the rules to advantage.

But I am also su****ious that the film has been edited and JJ's best moments have been removed. At least I am su****ious of this.

[Dr. Z]

Throwing cheap shots during the clinch is kinda common, still wrong but kind of common. Hitting off the break as Wills did with Firpo is dirty fighting.

If I had been the referee I would have warned JJ about holding a few times and if he was still doing it by the 5th round (as he was) I would DQ him.

Taking away a man's title on a DQ is always a difficult thing to do. In fact I am not sure if it has ever happened in the HW ranks.

What bothered me about watching Johnson (and Ali) was that he were controlling the pacing of the fight, breaking the rules to advantage.

But I am also su****ious that the film has been edited and JJ's best moments have been removed. At least I am su****ious of this.

Oh, Johnson hit on the breaks too. See the Moran vs Johnson film as he got in real cheap shot. The ref was partial to Johnson with his fouls which included squeezing the other opponents biceps. That not boxing! And Moran almost quits on film because of it. You can see it. The Johnson fans, well some of them here wish that wasn't on film! In other fights he clearly goes low.

[Dr. Z]

In bold above: Where you addressing me

Not directly, but what do you think of the testimonials from those who saw the fight?

[Willie Pep 229]

That's fair but when exactly did QB rules start actually being enforced?

Cleats, hard gloves, ring size, there was a bunch of stuff QB restricted that guys from Sullivan to JJ didn't really follow.

I'm not trying to justify JJ's tactics I'm just guessing there wasn't much criticism of hugging because it was pretty common.

I appreciate the welcome.

I agree about the inconsistency - we are quick to point out the The Great John L. actually only fought four bare knuckle fights and that's true, but what people don't realize there is some evidence that some of Sullivan's gloved fights were still fought under the LPR rules but with gloved hands. It was a messy transition from the LPR to MQB, it didn't happen all at once.

[Willie Pep 229]

Not directly, but what do you think of the testimonials from those who saw the fight?

You called me a bum and said get out of here? That wasn't nice. And worst, at the time I thought I was agreeing with you. Lol

Anyway did you see how far apart these testimonials were from one another? As I stated before, between what you and Ivich posted it is hard to believe these guys were watching the same damn fight.

So I am still ambivalent about the issue but really would like to see how the fight actually ended.

[QueensburyRules]

Oh, Johnson hit on the breaks too. See the Moran vs Johnson film as he got in real cheap shot. The ref was partial to Johnson with his fouls which included squeezing the other opponents biceps. That not boxing! And Moran almost quits on film because of it. You can see it. The Johnson fans, well some of them here wish that wasn't on film! In other fights he clearly goes low.

- - Been around the block too many times to imagine a growed man much less a top fighter would be hollerin' about squeezed biceps.

That's what girls used to do to me when showing their interest, a compliment.

[BattlingNelson]

Thank you very much for this.

I enjoyed it very much.