a case for Joe Louis beating Muhammad Ali prime for prime

[kara]

not realistic to be able to prove it in such a way that its scientific. 99.9 percent of this forum is opinions, from those educated on boxing for the most part.

Everything I say or point out you refuse to acknowledge or even see. I could explain to you all these things and probably have 100 times. For some reason you never listen though. Your list is not what I say, its out of context. Every single one of those I gave a good explanation for. So its ridiculous to keep bringing it up.

I told you WHY I see them as having glass chins 50 times. These factors made boxing an environment that doesn't allow someone with a glass chin to survive. it was too dangerous

- fighters are private contractors and openly duck and protect themselves (this is why we see so many undefeated records).
- Fights are stopped sooner, and often with no marks on the fighters faces - they simply wont fight back. Just the other day Ryan Garcia quit on live TV, instantly got up a second later.
- back in the day, you were EXPECTED to fight, we all know this. They came to hurt eachother.
- amateur boxing changed in the 90's, most pros today have already had 200+ ammy fights and cannot ever stop fighting like that (Amir Khan for example).

The petronelli brothers said if they found out a fighter has a glass jaw they tell him to quit boxing right away.


Some of these are easy too answer though, for example Canelo, who sucks wind and takes breaks constantly. He looked exhausted against Bivol. He's carrying way too much mass. he is a 154 lb fighter. Theres a perfect example of proof right there.

Them_Apples has a worthy foe on his hands here.

[Bundana]

not realistic to be able to prove it in such a way that its scientific. 99.9 percent of this forum is opinions, from those educated on boxing for the most part.

Everything I say or point out you refuse to acknowledge or even see. I could explain to you all these things and probably have 100 times. For some reason you never listen though. Your list is not what I say, its out of context. Every single one of those I gave a good explanation for. So its ridiculous to keep bringing it up.

I told you WHY I see them as having glass chins 50 times. These factors made boxing an environment that doesn't allow someone with a glass chin to survive. it was too dangerous

- fighters are private contractors and openly duck and protect themselves (this is why we see so many undefeated records).
- Fights are stopped sooner, and often with no marks on the fighters faces - they simply wont fight back. Just the other day Ryan Garcia quit on live TV, instantly got up a second later.
- back in the day, you were EXPECTED to fight, we all know this. They came to hurt eachother.
- amateur boxing changed in the 90's, most pros today have already had 200+ ammy fights and cannot ever stop fighting like that (Amir Khan for example).

The petronelli brothers said if they found out a fighter has a glass jaw they tell him to quit boxing right away.


Some of these are easy too answer though, for example Canelo, who sucks wind and takes breaks constantly. He looked exhausted against Bivol. He's carrying way too much mass. he is a 154 lb fighter. Theres a perfect example of proof right there.

Well, my list is actually what you have said!

I don't believe, I ever saw Mayweather gas after a few rounds. And not Pacquiao either. Usyk has proven to have an excellent gas tank. Last year's FOTY between Conlan and Wood gave us 12 rounds of torrid action. Many other fights are fought at a very high pace... so just because you can name Canelo as an example of someone, who has to conserve his energy, does not prove that, generally speaking, boxers today gas after 4 rounds.

Back in the day "they came to hurt each other". Really? How about fights like:
Mickey Walker vs Jimmy Jones (WW title fight)
Mickey Walker vs Harlem Eddie Kelly
George Godfrey vs Mauro Galusso
George Godfrey vs Bearcat Wright
Maxie Rosenbloom vs Paul Swiderski
Paul Berlenbach vs Tony Marullo (LHW title fight)
Jack Delaney vs Jackie Clark
Dave shade vs Frank Moody
Dave Shade vs Larry Jones
Young Stribling vs Leo Deibel
Benny Bass vs Kid Kansas
Harry Wills vs Sam McVea
How much were these men trying to hurt each other? Not very much, I'm afraid... seeing that all of them were thrown out for not making an effort! Needless to say, there's no proof that today's boxers are more reluctant to hurt each other than the old-timers!

As for the claim that most modern boxers have glass jaws... I know very well, what your position is on this subject: That back in the day, those with weak chins were quickly weeded out (as if exactly the same isn't the case today!). And that "you had to have an iron beard to be in the top 10". But didn't we examine this claim in detail some time ago, in that hilariously funny "A key point that proves oldschool fighters were tougher and better chinned" thread of yours?... and found that some of the biggest china-chinned fighters back then (like Eddie Mader and Hank Hankinson) actually made it into The Ring's Top-10. After which you had to agree that "it seems that not EVERYONE had an iron chin in the top 10"!

Now you can object all you want, but there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY TO DEFEND/PROVE THE CLAIM, THAT MOST MODERN BOXERS HAVE GLASS JAWS. Sorry if this offends you!

[QueensburyRules]

College football was started by rich, smart kids.

The first legal forward pass was still 26 years away.

- - Didn't Teddy Roosevelt first call on colleges to legalize the forward pass?

[Willie Pep 229]

- - Didn't Teddy Roosevelt first call on colleges to legalize the forward pass?

I don't think so.

TR was much like Trump in that he often took credit for things he shouldn't have. But he was important.

The 1905 season had been a brutal one, even by early football standards.

There was an on going argument as to what would make the game safer: 'Massplay (a term used when football would be played like a rugby scrum) and 'the open game' where the offensive would spread out its attack.

Between 1880 and 1906 there was slow march away from massplay to the open game. Several rule changes came and went.

After the death of a Cadet at Army (1905) , Army canceled the rest of its season and announced it was setting its own, new, safety rules. Follow these rules or you couldn't play Army.

Other colleges balked at Army's pretensions.

The annual post season meeting (which had been occurring since 1880) in 1905 was very contentious.

Recognizing that they were getting too much bad press, and, in-tune with the progressive spirt, they officially organized themselves into the IAAUS. (Later changed to the NCAA.)

For the most part the 1905 meeting saw the incorporation of the new Army safety rules and in 1906 released their first publicly published rulebook. (I think. I can't find an earlier one, yet.)

The decision was to the move towards the open game, claiming it would be safer. (This of course is bogus, it actually made the game more dangerous.)

Forward Pass: There had been a decade long argument involving the forward pass. The traditionalist didn't like it. It was considered unmanly to throw the ball over you opponent's head instead of running through him. Early pass attempts were often booed by the crowd as cowardly.

Nevertheless they finally agreed on two major changes for the '06 season.

What had been three fair downs to gain five yards, was now expanded to three fair downs to gain ten yards. Believing the extra five yards would force more open play and make massplay ineffective.

To add to this 'more open play,' they finally allowed, for the first time, a legal forward pass.

It came with many qualifications. Such as: the QB first had to run laterally for five yards before he could throw a forward pass. Thus making all pass plays running option plays. Worst, If the ball hit the ground, for any reason, it was a dead ball, and the team lost possession at that spot.

Between 1906 and 1913 they slowly changed the forward pass rules making it less and less prohibited to risk and finally, by 1913, the rules looked very similar to today.

Teddy, who was a champion of sport and the manly life, in 1905, invited the IAAUS leadership to the White House for lunch.

Teddy had used this tactic both with civil rights and labor unions by eating lunch at the WH with Booker T. Washington and John L. Lewis. (I.e. the "Square Deal.")

The lunch singled to the people that the President saw these institutions as good for America.

So he applied this tactic to college football, giving it his seal of approval, and he was very popular.

So, no Teddy really had nothing to do with the forward pass, they had been arguing massplay vs. the open game and the forward pass before Teddy got involved.

But it was VERY important that TR gave his OK to the game. It forced the critics to back-off some and helped preserve the game.

You have to remember these weren't working class kids, they came from money, and when they came home with broken arms, missing teeth, and sometimes even in a box, their angry parents had a very loud voice.

Like I said at the top, Teddy had a 'bad Trump' habit of overstating his importance to other's efforts.

So, no. But I have no doubt someone can find a quote by Teddy or a friend claiming he did.

P.S. I should add, it might well have been that Teddy, at lunch, did push for the forward pass to be legalized. He was a fan and it was a common argument among fans. So, yea, I'd bet TR pushed for its incorporation that day. But he wasn't the 'mover' just one more 'shaker.'

[them_apples]

Well, my list is actually what you have said!

I don't believe, I ever saw Mayweather gas after a few rounds. And not Pacquiao either. Usyk has proven to have an excellent gas tank. Last year's FOTY between Conlan and Wood gave us 12 rounds of torrid action. Many other fights are fought at a very high pace... so just because you can name Canelo as an example of someone, who has to conserve his energy, does not prove that, generally speaking, boxers today gas after 4 rounds.

Back in the day "they came to hurt each other". Really? How about fights like:
Mickey Walker vs Jimmy Jones (WW title fight)
Mickey Walker vs Harlem Eddie Kelly
George Godfrey vs Mauro Galusso
George Godfrey vs Bearcat Wright
Maxie Rosenbloom vs Paul Swiderski
Paul Berlenbach vs Tony Marullo (LHW title fight)
Jack Delaney vs Jackie Clark
Dave shade vs Frank Moody
Dave Shade vs Larry Jones
Young Stribling vs Leo Deibel
Benny Bass vs Kid Kansas
Harry Wills vs Sam McVea
How much were these men trying to hurt each other? Not very much, I'm afraid... seeing that all of them were thrown out for not making an effort! Needless to say, there's no proof that today's boxers are more reluctant to hurt each other than the old-timers!

As for the claim that most modern boxers have glass jaws... I know very well, what your position is on this subject: That back in the day, those with weak chins were quickly weeded out (as if exactly the same isn't the case today!). And that "you had to have an iron beard to be in the top 10". But didn't we examine this claim in detail some time ago, in that hilariously funny "A key point that proves oldschool fighters were tougher and better chinned" thread of yours?... and found that some of the biggest china-chinned fighters back then (like Eddie Mader and Hank Hankinson) actually made it into The Ring's Top-10. After which you had to agree that "it seems that not EVERYONE had an iron chin in the top 10"!

Now you can object all you want, but there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY TO DEFEND/PROVE THE CLAIM, THAT MOST MODERN BOXERS HAVE GLASS JAWS. Sorry if this offends you!

so you don’t think the reasons I gave don’t at least support what I am saying? What parts shouod I elaborate on, until you understand the point I was making.

in a violent world, the toughest chins survived long enough to get good. There was no running away and not fighting. Even Willy pep was still fighting hard with his style. Its a probability thing. You can have a glass jaw now because some guys have barely been hit when they go pro, in latter years you fought so much you learned that lesson hard and early and developed ways to stay safe while fighting. Ryan Garcia was an extremely untested and unintelligent fighter, yet he's being touted as a de la hoya, which is a joke.

I can tell you right now Marciano would destroy any heavyweight today and nobody would see it coming. If you watch him fight hes a savvy hard fighter, very determined even in comparison to Fury. Hed beat them all up weighing 188 lbs. I promise you that would be the out come.

[Bundana]

so you donât think the reasons I gave donât at least support what I am saying? What parts shouod I elaborate on, until you understand the point I was making.

in a violent world, the toughest chins survived long enough to get good. There was no running away and not fighting. Even Willy pep was still fighting hard with his style. Its a probability thing. You can have a glass jaw now because some guys have barely been hit when they go pro, in latter years you fought so much you learned that lesson hard and early and developed ways to stay safe while fighting. Ryan Garcia was an extremely untested and unintelligent fighter, yet he's being touted as a de la hoya, which is a joke.

I can tell you right now Marciano would destroy any heavyweight today and nobody would see it coming. If you watch him fight hes a savvy hard fighter, very determined even in comparison to Fury. Hed beat them all up weighing 188 lbs. I promise you that would be the out come.

But that's just the thing... how violent was it inside the ring, in them old days? Back in the ND era, were most fights really brutal wars, that weeded out the weak? How can you possibly know anything about this, when we (because of lack of footage) can only study a select few of the hundreds of thousands fights that took place back then? What about the more than 99%, that we can't see? How many were between low-level journeymen, who simply wanted to make a little money to make ends meet... without putting in too much of an effort? I don't know, but I suspect there were a lot of fights like that.

I showed you about a dozen fights from back then, where they must have forgotten your "there was no running away and not fighting" idea.

Here are some more examples, all from the year 1920, where both men were sent packing, for failing to make a fight of it:

01-01, Harry Wills vs Jack Thompson
01-08, Mickey Nelson vs Joe Colletti
02-13, Al Young vs Charles Doyle
02-16, Charlie Bergen vs Freddie Siegel
02-27, Mike Paulson vs Mel Stevenson
03-01, Harry Hulin vs W. O'Neill
03-18, Buddy Lane vs Billy Smith
03-20, Al Ross vs Frankie Daniels
03-24, Patsy Rubino vs Kid Kansas
03-28, Antoine Acencio vs Constant
04-05, George Shade vs **** Doolin
04-05, Frank Oldrich vs George Eagel
04-09, Larry Jones vs Dave Shade
04-15, Tommy Lang vs Eddie Stencil
04-26, Jack Stroud vs Pascal Colone
04-27, Frankie O'Neill vs Young Mahoney
04-28, Leo Patterson vs Eddie Carver
04-29, Babe Herman vs Charley Moy
05-03, Bill Reed vs Willie Keeler
06-10, Frankie Webb vs Leo Houck
07-04, Willie Doyle vs Bobby Ward
07-07, Del Howard vs Bud Taylor
07-08, Joey Reilly vs Frankie Pitcher
08-05, Frank Carbone vs Silent Martin
08-26, Battling Stanley vs Eddie Marks
08-30, Buddy Josephs vs Chick Hayes
09-13, Pinky Lewis vs Battling Norfolk
10-14, Jack Davis vs Frank Oldrich
10-15, Steve Dalton vs Andy Palmer
10-25, Young Fyne vs Young Molson
10-25, John George vs Jimmy McDonough
11-01, George Sollis vs Jay Solomon
11-06, Calvin Respress vs Gunboat Smith
11-08, Charlie Cole vs Billy Hone
11-13, KO Jaffe vs Silent Martin
11-16, Jimmy Werner vs Eddie Brown
11-19, Jimmy Bradley vs Mickey O'Donnell
11-26, Tonto Lloyd vs Nipper Walsh
11-29, Cyclone Taylor vs Burrhead Scott

So no, far from all fights were slam-**** affairs, where the weak were being weeded out.

And you can promise me, that at 188 Marciano would destroy all of today's giant heavyweights? Lol, I know you're too smart to actually believe this...

[cyril layman]

- - 60s Ali era was weaker than Rocky's era is the point I'm making, equivalent to the post Rocky era with Patterson and Liston who admittedly had the best title reign as far as competition, fighting Floyd and then Ali consecutively back to back.

Had he taken an interim Cleveland Williams type defense before young Clay, he takes the first Ali fight and already took the 2nd Ali fight according to the rules of boxing in Valhalla.

Rocky is at best a cruiser weight.He was 5'10 & had the shortest reach of any HW champion.He came in to the ring maxed out out 188-190.He defeated HW with no names.He beat former Light HW champion Archie moore who knocked Marciano down in i believe the 2nd round which is an insult.Had Marciano fought in the 1960's he would have fought against only 1 champion because there was only 1 belt to fight for (as it should be) so he would have fought against Liston or Ali & would have never won the belt.

[QueensburyRules]

Rocky is at best a cruiser weight.He was 5'10 & had the shortest reach of any HW champion.He came in to the ring maxed out out 188-190.He defeated HW with no names.He beat former Light HW champion Archie moore who knocked Marciano down in i believe the 2nd round which is an insult.Had Marciano fought in the 1960's he would have fought against only 1 champion because there was only 1 belt to fight for (as it should be) so he would have fought against Liston or Ali & would have never won the belt.

- - Rocky was beating Ring ranked HOFers Moore, Walcott, and Charles not to mention Louis.

What grade you in now?

[them_apples]

But that's just the thing... how violent was it inside the ring, in them old days? Back in the ND era, were most fights really brutal wars, that weeded out the weak? How can you possibly know anything about this, when we (because of lack of footage) can only study a select few of the hundreds of thousands fights that took place back then? What about the more than 99%, that we can't see? How many were between low-level journeymen, who simply wanted to make a little money to make ends meet... without putting in too much of an effort? I don't know, but I suspect there were a lot of fights like that.

I showed you about a dozen fights from back then, where they must have forgotten your "there was no running away and not fighting" idea.

Here are some more examples, all from the year 1920, where both men were sent packing, for failing to make a fight of it:

01-01, Harry Wills vs Jack Thompson
01-08, Mickey Nelson vs Joe Colletti
02-13, Al Young vs Charles Doyle
02-16, Charlie Bergen vs Freddie Siegel
02-27, Mike Paulson vs Mel Stevenson
03-01, Harry Hulin vs W. O'Neill
03-18, Buddy Lane vs Billy Smith
03-20, Al Ross vs Frankie Daniels
03-24, Patsy Rubino vs Kid Kansas
03-28, Antoine Acencio vs Constant
04-05, George Shade vs **** Doolin
04-05, Frank Oldrich vs George Eagel
04-09, Larry Jones vs Dave Shade
04-15, Tommy Lang vs Eddie Stencil
04-26, Jack Stroud vs Pascal Colone
04-27, Frankie O'Neill vs Young Mahoney
04-28, Leo Patterson vs Eddie Carver
04-29, Babe Herman vs Charley Moy
05-03, Bill Reed vs Willie Keeler
06-10, Frankie Webb vs Leo Houck
07-04, Willie Doyle vs Bobby Ward
07-07, Del Howard vs Bud Taylor
07-08, Joey Reilly vs Frankie Pitcher
08-05, Frank Carbone vs Silent Martin
08-26, Battling Stanley vs Eddie Marks
08-30, Buddy Josephs vs Chick Hayes
09-13, Pinky Lewis vs Battling Norfolk
10-14, Jack Davis vs Frank Oldrich
10-15, Steve Dalton vs Andy Palmer
10-25, Young Fyne vs Young Molson
10-25, John George vs Jimmy McDonough
11-01, George Sollis vs Jay Solomon
11-06, Calvin Respress vs Gunboat Smith
11-08, Charlie Cole vs Billy Hone
11-13, KO Jaffe vs Silent Martin
11-16, Jimmy Werner vs Eddie Brown
11-19, Jimmy Bradley vs Mickey O'Donnell
11-26, Tonto Lloyd vs Nipper Walsh
11-29, Cyclone Taylor vs Burrhead Scott

So no, far from all fights were slam-**** affairs, where the weak were being weeded out.

And you can promise me, that at 188 Marciano would destroy all of today's giant heavyweights? Lol, I know you're too smart to actually believe this...

I haven't watched all those fights so I can't comment. clearly there are exceptions. arent you proving my point? they were sent packing. They didn't allow it and it was frowned upon.

I'm talking in probabilities anyways. its ridiculous to think there never was a fighter who ran. That's just how you argue though. my points easy to understand.

[Bundana]

I haven't watched all those fights so I can't comment. clearly there are exceptions. arent you proving my point? they were sent packing. They didn't allow it and it was frowned upon.

I'm talking in probabilities anyways. its ridiculous to think there never was a fighter who ran. That's just how you argue though. my points easy to understand.

No, I'm arguing, that we can find many examples of fights, where they didn't give their all. Which is very different from you claiming that "There was no running away and not fighting". As we have seen, there actually were several boxers back then, who failed to put in an effort.

Yes, your points are easy to understand - which doesn't make them any less ridiculous. Like 188 Marciano "would destroy any heavyweight today" On a list of your most absurd contentions, this one has to be close to the very top! But then again, I doubt this is really your honest opinion... which leaves the question: why on earth would you say something as silly as that??