What if Gene Tunnney was un-defeated in 60+ fights?

[travestyny]

Yes, I wanted a list of possible balck challegers, which for Tunney was thin. Thank you for proving my point. He offered Wills a fight, he did not take it.

Are you sure that's true?

There's just as much evidence that Wills offered Tunney a fight at a venue he was booked at, right before a planned Dempsey bout that, of course, would never happen. A great chance for Tunney to leapfrog Wills, and Tunney turned it down claiming he couldn't get enough money from the outdoor venue.

[travestyny]

Wills took Sharkey as an eliminator in 1926. How is that different?

How different. Wills finaly realized he was not getting a shot at Dempsey unless he gave Tex Rickard another fight, first. So in 1926 he finally stopped foolishly 'standing his ground.'

It was accepted that Dempsey would not fight again until after January 1926, once his ten year contract with Doc Kearns ended. Dempsey began to prepare himself in late 1925 for a 1926 comeback fight. Tex Rickard began to get the field ready.

In 1925 Rickard offered Wills a fight in May with Tommy Gibbons in Yankee Stadium with the winner gaining a shot at Dempsey in 1926. ***

Instead it's Tunney who fights Gibbons in June 1925 and then gets the Dempsey shot in '26. Why?

The last big-time 'elimination fight' Wills had was with Firpo in 1924 who extended Wills the distance, not looking great, with only one illegal KD on break. Not a very exciting fight.

Wills other two 1925 fights were just ham & eggers, the one with Wienert being merely an undercard fight and Floyd Johnson being nothing more than a journeyman at best.

Do you really think that would satisfy Tex Rickard's pocketbook; enough to give away the big anticipated Dempsey comeback fight?

Wills was going to pony up another big payday for himself and more importantly for Rickard if he wanted a title shot. No matter what color he was.

(Digression: Rickard made Dempsey give him an interim fight with Sharkey before he let Dempsey get a rematch with Tunney. Rickard always wanted interim [multiple] fights he liked to call eliminators.)

Tex Rickard was not going to waste a 1926 Dempsey fight on anyone, whether it be Wills, Sharkey, Gibbons, or Tunney unless he got another big fight out of two of them in 1925. He made Wills the first offer, Gibbons in May. Wills turned it down.

(New York Times, February 21st, 1925) ***

Tunney stepped up and stopped Gibbons, Wills didn't.

Wills tried to use his Tammany Hall connections, (the 'Don King' of the era,) James Farley (NYSAC), to force the Dempsey fight based on his so-so 1924 Firpo performance. Not enough there to excite Rickard or the crowd. Wills needed a big 1925 fight, that fight was offered him, Tommy Gibbons.

(All Farley succeeded in doing was driving the Dempsey-Tunney fight to Philadelphia and with it all that New York revenue lost.)

The idea that (the Negro) Wills should plant his feet in 1925 and demand a title shot was a very bad plan. Farley was not as powerful as he thought, and other cities wanted the fight.

(The last time we spoke you called me comical, please don't do that again. I would like you to show me the same respect I always show you when we disagree.)

*** In regards to Rickard's sincerity we can only point out that this was the only time he didn't hedge. He said he would do it. That makes this offer different than the 1922 bogus offers.

Plus Tunney got the Dempsey fight because he stopped Gibbons, just as Rickard promised the winner would. Wills should have taken the Gibbons fight, and not listened to NYSAC. They were just using Wills to garner black votes out of Harlem.

Respectfully, this makes no sense. And I will explain why.

Dempsey vs. Wills was the clear bigger fight than Dempsey vs. Tunney.

If Rickard wanted to just grab a paycheck from someone before letting them have the Dempsey comeback fight, why wouldn't he just pocket the money from Tunney vs. Gibbons and go ahead with Dempsey vs. Wills next? Wouldn't be the first time he lied about a victory leading to a title fight. Dempsey vs. Wills was indeed what the people wanted. Multiple polls proved this. It was THE FIGHT. It's what promoters wanted. It's what venues wanted. In modern terms, It was Mayweather vs Pacquiao. It's the reason that Dempsey was offered more money for the fight than he was to fight Tunney.

Dempsey allowed Rickard to come back into the fold when he could have easily made the fight without him, knowing that Rickard wanted no part of Dempsey vs. Wills. But Dempsey also should have known there was more money in the Wills fight than any other. So draw your own conclusions there.

And if this was about Rickard keeping his word, I don't believe it. He never kept his word to Wills before, and his reputation is that of a businessman more than a friend. As a promoter, he also clearly knew Wills vs. Dempsey was worth more than Tunney vs. Dempsey. So you will have to draw your own conclusions there again why he chose to duck it for years. The easy answer is that he didn't think it made business sense. Not because it wasn't the biggest fight to make, because it was. I believe he felt that fight had real potential to be bad for future business.

I've never understood why you continue to talk so badly about Tammany. In the end, all they wanted to do was make the Dempsey Wills fight. Which is the fight everyone wanted, even supposedly Dempsey. So there should be no issue.

Also, not sure why you stuck (the Negro) in there like that. lol. For new traffic, that probably comes across bad, bro.

[travestyny]

Wills took Sharkey as an eliminator in 1926. How is that different?

How different. Wills finaly realized he was not getting a shot at Dempsey unless he gave Tex Rickard another fight, first. So in 1926 he finally stopped foolishly 'standing his ground.'

It was accepted that Dempsey would not fight again until after January 1926, once his ten year contract with Doc Kearns ended. Dempsey began to prepare himself in late 1925 for a 1926 comeback fight. Tex Rickard began to get the field ready.

In 1925 Rickard offered Wills a fight in May with Tommy Gibbons in Yankee Stadium with the winner gaining a shot at Dempsey in 1926. ***

Instead it's Tunney who fights Gibbons in June 1925 and then gets the Dempsey shot in '26. Why?

The last big-time 'elimination fight' Wills had was with Firpo in 1924 who extended Wills the distance, not looking great, with only one illegal KD on break. Not a very exciting fight.

Wills other two 1925 fights were just ham & eggers, the one with Wienert being merely an undercard fight and Floyd Johnson being nothing more than a journeyman at best.

Do you really think that would satisfy Tex Rickard's pocketbook; enough to give away the big anticipated Dempsey comeback fight?

Wills was going to pony up another big payday for himself and more importantly for Rickard if he wanted a title shot. No matter what color he was.

(Digression: Rickard made Dempsey give him an interim fight with Sharkey before he let Dempsey get a rematch with Tunney. Rickard always wanted interim [multiple] fights he liked to call eliminators.)

Tex Rickard was not going to waste a 1926 Dempsey fight on anyone, whether it be Wills, Sharkey, Gibbons, or Tunney unless he got another big fight out of two of them in 1925. He made Wills the first offer, Gibbons in May. Wills turned it down.

(New York Times, February 21st, 1925) ***

Tunney stepped up and stopped Gibbons, Wills didn't.

Wills tried to use his Tammany Hall connections, (the 'Don King' of the era,) James Farley (NYSAC), to force the Dempsey fight based on his so-so 1924 Firpo performance. Not enough there to excite Rickard or the crowd. Wills needed a big 1925 fight, that fight was offered him, Tommy Gibbons.

(All Farley succeeded in doing was driving the Dempsey-Tunney fight to Philadelphia and with it all that New York revenue lost.)

The idea that (the Negro) Wills should plant his feet in 1925 and demand a title shot was a very bad plan. Farley was not as powerful as he thought, and other cities wanted the fight.

(The last time we spoke you called me comical, please don't do that again. I would like you to show me the same respect I always show you when we disagree.)

*** In regards to Rickard's sincerity we can only point out that this was the only time he didn't hedge. He said he would do it. That makes this offer different than the 1922 bogus offers.

Plus Tunney got the Dempsey fight because he stopped Gibbons, just as Rickard promised the winner would. Wills should have taken the Gibbons fight, and not listened to NYSAC. They were just using Wills to garner black votes out of Harlem.

I could have also saved myself that last response and simply mention that Tunney Gibbons was in June 1925, but in April 1926 Rickard had somehow found himself back in Dempsey's affairs and was openly saying to the media that Dempsey would fight either Wills or Tunney, and he wasn't sure which but he was still deciding the matter, and he was sure to include that "Dempsey believes Wills would be easier." Which tells me that Dempsey didn't think Wills would be easier. lol.

[Mr Mitts]

I don't think negro is a bad word any more than Caucasian is, it is just not the vogue word. For now it stands in the shadow of the real N-word and durst not be used in today's charged clime, to avoid squawking by brats and fanatics. It will return free of guilt.

[Dr Z]

Are you sure that's true?

YES. Tunney offered Wills a fight.

[Bronson66]

wills took sharkey as an eliminator in 1926. How is that different?

How different. Wills finaly realized he was not getting a shot at dempsey unless he gave tex rickard another fight, first. So in 1926 he finally stopped foolishly 'standing his ground.'

it was accepted that dempsey would not fight again until after january 1926, once his ten year contract with doc kearns ended. Dempsey began to prepare himself in late 1925 for a 1926 comeback fight. Tex rickard began to get the field ready.

In 1925 rickard offered wills a fight in may with tommy gibbons in yankee stadium with the winner gaining a shot at dempsey in 1926. ***

instead it's tunney who fights gibbons in june 1925 and then gets the dempsey shot in '26. Why?

The last big-time 'elimination fight' wills had was with firpo in 1924 who extended wills the distance, not looking great, with only one illegal kd on break. Not a very exciting fight.

Wills other two 1925 fights were just ham & eggers, the one with wienert being merely an undercard fight and floyd johnson being nothing more than a journeyman at best.

Do you really think that would satisfy tex rickard's pocketbook; enough to give away the big anticipated dempsey comeback fight?

Wills was going to pony up another big payday for himself and more importantly for rickard if he wanted a title shot. No matter what color he was.

(digression: Rickard made dempsey give him an interim fight with sharkey before he let dempsey get a rematch with tunney. Rickard always wanted interim [multiple] fights he liked to call eliminators.)

tex rickard was not going to waste a 1926 dempsey fight on anyone, whether it be wills, sharkey, gibbons, or tunney unless he got another big fight out of two of them in 1925. he made wills the first offer, gibbons in may. Wills turned it down.

(new york times, february 21st, 1925) ***

tunney stepped up and stopped gibbons, wills didn't.

Wills tried to use his tammany hall connections, (the 'don king' of the era,) james farley (nysac), to force the dempsey fight based on his so-so 1924 firpo performance. Not enough there to excite rickard or the crowd. Wills needed a big 1925 fight, that fight was offered him, tommy gibbons.

(all farley succeeded in doing was driving the dempsey-tunney fight to philadelphia and with it all that new york revenue lost.)

the idea that (the negro) wills should plant his feet in 1925 and demand a title shot was a very bad plan. Farley was not as powerful as he thought, and other cities wanted the fight.

(the last time we spoke you called me comical, please don't do that again. I would like you to show me the same respect i always show you when we disagree.)

*** in regards to rickard's sincerity we can only point out that this was the only time he didn't hedge. He said he would do it. That makes this offer different than the 1922 bogus offers.

Plus tunney got the dempsey fight because he stopped gibbons, just as rickard promised the winner would. Wills should have taken the gibbons fight, and not listened to nysac. They were just using wills to garner black votes out of harlem.

Edited

[travestyny]

YES. Tunney offered Wills a fight.

Do you have anything that would lead us to think it was legitimate? Looks like Wills offered Tunney a fight according to a neutral witness.

Seattle Star Nov. 4, 1925

[travestyny]

I don't think negro is a bad word any more than Caucasian is, it is just not the vogue word. For now it stands in the shadow of the real N-word and durst not be used in today's charged clime, to avoid squawking by brats and fanatics. It will return free of guilt.

My only point about that is that it seemed unnecessary and out of left field. We all know Wills is Black. Just seemed odd.

[Dr Z]

Do you have anything that would lead us to think it was legitimate? Looks like Wills offered Tunney a fight according to a neutral witness.

Seattle Star Nov. 4, 1925

That is not the offer I was talking about for Wills. Team Wills let Tunney offer alone at a later date.

[travestyny]

That is not the offer I was talking about for Wills. Team Wills let Tunney offer alone at a later date.

Wills also said he was willing to fight Tunney after this date. The point is, it's not true that Wills turned down an opportunity to fight Tunney. He was willing to fight him, as you can see right there.