What if Gene Tunnney was un-defeated in 60+ fights?

[billeau2]

No crisis! There can't be, it's already dead.

The American English language is going through a transformation via the Internet, and is altering its grammar towards convenience; i.e. a non-challenging simplicity.

Did you know, once all American could sing? Then came radio. (19th Century)

Once, all Americans could write, with just a 'grammar school' education. (20th Century)

Then came social media. Now we 'text.'

Blame technology.

The populace follows the crowd. (LOL wait, that doesn't make sense, but it seems to.)

No crisis! That implies there's still hope. It's done.

The printing press was probably per the population, the greatest influence to literacy. Books used to be precious treasures, when they could be mass produced suddenly literacy had a true purpose beyond the control it imbued the elites with.

The internet might yet overtake the printing press scary!

[Bronson66]

He'd be undefeated solely in the white leagues. But we're not honest about our "world" champions' "world" participation so probably be the GOAT HW. With all of 2 defenses to his name.

Tunney only fought about a dozen men over 180lbs,about half of whom were just "opponent" level,that does not qualify him for a place in the top ten as a heavyweight,imo, though he should probably rank in the top 5 or 6 at lightheavy.

[billeau2]

He'd be undefeated solely in the white leagues. But we're not honest about our "world" champions' "world" participation so probably be the GOAT HW. With all of 2 defenses to his name.

It's one of those things... Tunney never really faltered, so we can't really know that he necessarily would.

It's a similar argument I use against the euro brigade in the general boxing section regarding Luis Ortiz: you can't say his competition was markedly different than any other heavyweight who did not defeat one of the best at the time, but you cannot say that he faltered up until the point where he lost to Wilder when he obviously was on his way out.

To me this means saying he would lose to guys like Joyce because of a different caliber of opposition is ridiculous.

We know Tunney fought very well against Jack Dempsey. We can take it to the next level talk about where Dempsey was at at that time his career, etc, but what we cannot do is say "Gene was vulnerable to losing fights against heavyweight opposition."

That's not to say we cannot speculate about his performance. Obviously when we think about a heavyweight like Sonny Liston opinions would consider the size difference. But counting a guy like Tunny out is hard lol.

[billeau2]

Tunney only fought about a dozen men over 180lbs,about half of whom were just "opponent" level,that does not qualify him for a place in the top ten as a heavyweight,imo, though he should probably rank in the top 5 or 6 at lightheavy.

If people truly understood how much size difference changed as a variable with modern boxing post Dempsey he would make this point easier to understand. Tunney is unique in that he seemed well drilled in both styles.

But pre-classical boxing did not emphasize squaring up, punching with such large movements one needs to do so with larger gloves, the distance was different, the footwork was different.

So when we look at a fighter like Gene, or the original walcott, and we see them smaller in stature, It would not make them necessarily able to fight the same way in modern boxing where size is a much more important variable.

Once this is appreciated it becomes apparent that while Tunney did some amazing things by fighting Dempsey he really does not translate as a heavyweight.

[Bronson66]

if people truly understood how much size difference changed as a variable with modern boxing post dempsey he would make this point easier to understand. Tunney is unique in that he seemed well drilled in both styles.

But pre-classical boxing did not emphasize squaring up, punching with such large movements one needs to do so with larger gloves, the distance was different, the footwork was different.

So when we look at a fighter like gene, or the original walcott, and we see them smaller in stature, it would not make them necessarily able to fight the same way in modern boxing where size is a much more important variable.

Once this is appreciated it becomes apparent that while tunney did some amazing things by fighting dempsey he really does not translate as a heavyweight.

Edited

[Marchegiano]

At HW I just kind of chuckle. 2 defenses, 3 fights ...

As a LHW I kind of struggle too. His resume is beyond reproach but he didn't bother to pick up a LHW title. Or claim it. AFAIK. So like Charles I kind of struggle with the skill vs status end of him. I like to think being the champion means something.

He's a great p4p fighter, I'll give him that for free with no well actuallies .... but honestly on LHW and HW that comes down to my mood at the time.

[billeau2]

At HW I just kind of chuckle. 2 defenses, 3 fights ...

As a LHW I kind of struggle too. His resume is beyond reproach but he didn't bother to pick up a LHW title. Or claim it. AFAIK. So like Charles I kind of struggle with the skill vs status end of him. I like to think being the champion means something.

He's a great p4p fighter, I'll give him that for free with no well actuallies .... but honestly on LHW and HW that comes down to my mood at the time.

Great point... This is where the tradition oriented me often comes out professing the eternal Gravitas of the heavyweight title, and all it stand for... But it never occured to me to think of the light heavy title... And if what you say is so it can be looked upon as a few possible things:

1. Tunney thought the value of the heavyweight title was such that having a light heavy title was of little consequence
2. Tunney was in a certain position at the time where he could not remedy the situation
3. Tunney thought of himself a certain way... perhaps as a light heavy who was the heavyweight champ, or, as the best heavyweight at the time and little else...

[QueensburyRules]

If people truly understood how much size difference changed as a variable with modern boxing post Dempsey he would make this point easier to understand. Tunney is unique in that he seemed well drilled in both styles.

But pre-classical boxing did not emphasize squaring up, punching with such large movements one needs to do so with larger gloves, the distance was different, the footwork was different.

So when we look at a fighter like Gene, or the original walcott, and we see them smaller in stature, It would not make them necessarily able to fight the same way in modern boxing where size is a much more important variable.

Once this is appreciated it becomes apparent that while Tunney did some amazing things by fighting Dempsey he really does not translate as a heavyweight.

- - Fight film of the 2 bouts is very poor and missing rounds and minutes. We know that Dempsey had been making his $$$ in Hollywood using his actress wife to deposit his pay that ducked the liens of Kearns that played a role in negating the Wills fights.

Dempsey definitely won the 2nd and retired to a gentleman's life as one of the most popular fighters ever that turned Boxing into a million$$$ epic.

[Willie Pep 229]

- - Fight film of the 2 bouts is very poor and missing rounds and minutes. We know that Dempsey had been making his $$$ in Hollywood using his actress wife to deposit his pay that ducked the liens of Kearns that played a role in negating the Wills fights.

Dempsey definitely won the 2nd and retired to a gentleman's life as one of the most popular fighters ever that turned Boxing into a million$$$ epic.

Dempsey didn't win the second fight. He got jobbed on the count. It will always be argued both ways so long as boxing exists.

That's a good thing.

Controversey, controversy, it's great for the game." Angelo Dundee.

Don Rickles is still welshing on a 34 year old bet, in a 1961 Twilight Zone episode, Mr. Dingle, The Strong.

I dare you: Name a single, game, event, or play from any of the major American sports that holds the same metaphoric power as the 'long count.'

No sport can bring the emotional drama that a prize fight can.

P.S. BTW No major sport can 'stink out the place' more than a bad prize fight can.

[Dr Z]

He'd be undefeated solely in the white leagues. But we're not honest about our "world" champions' "world" participation so probably be the GOAT HW. With all of 2 defenses to his name.

But who was there for Tunney to fight that was ranked and black? He challenged Wills to a fight only be turned down. Agree or disagree.